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PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 12:25 pm 
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No I have never had one because they are virtually impossible to get one issued. In light of the reluctance to issue these permits,, the fact remains that seals need to be dealt with.
Dwayne


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 12:40 pm 
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I'm not exactly a tree hugger, but in light of the fact that between 85 and 90% of all biomass in the ocean has been removed, it is the human and not the seal that needs to be controlled.

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PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 6:09 pm 
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That being said, much of the world is against the Canadian Seal Cull, just as we are against the Japanese harvest of 1000 whales.

Why should anyone respect anything Canada says about respecting deep sea quotas or protecting Oceanic Whales, when we consistently refuse to stop the seal cull?

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


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PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 7:52 pm 
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--------"90%....where did he get that number???"

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PostPosted: January 17th, 2008, 8:18 pm 
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Laugh if you will. The info came from a Marine Biology textbook I had. It was also from a report on one of the Marine Biology websites I used to frequent. The info was bookmarked on my old computer.

One specific quote stated that between 85% and 90% of marine biomass has been removed from the ocean. I pulled the figure from an editorial I wrote a year or so, ago.

It may take me a few days to find the actual reference, but take for example just the change of cod on the Scotian Shelf;

Quote:
Once a dominant species, the volume of cod on the Scotian Shelf has plunged 96% since
the 1850s, according to landmark research published today. In fact, just 16 small
schooners of the pre-Civil War era could hold all adult cod currently estimated in the
once-rich Scotian Shelf.


Reference Frontiers in Ecology.
http://www.coml.org/medres/coml_release_hmap_public.pdf

Thats just 1 species where only 4% remains. There are many species extinct. The 85% to 90% is accurate.

If you don't want to believe the number, I really don't give a s#!t. You don't believe anything you don't find on one of your rabid right wing blogs, anyway.

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 4:43 am 
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Salmon Chaser wrote:
Wow,, google can really bring out the best in some of us,, and the odd snippet from Compass. Seal proof traps?? Seriously? Can you google me the link to the saviour of the south side lobster fleet that each and every day has at leas 15% of a fishermans gear stripped by seals?? Please hurry before this "urban legend" causes me to miss my next set of monthly payments!!


Some people think others are only capable of doing a bit of googling. Have you reviewed the "Stock and fishery status of the American Lobster, Homarus americanus, in the souther Gulf of St. Lawrence, for 2001 (lobster Fishing Areas 23, 24, 25, 26A and 26B). This is a publication of the Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat.

I've read the document 3 or four times over the last few years. The document prohibits citing it, so I'll just advise that you read it.

Reading it will show the various zones are all highly exploited, if not over exploited. It will also show that an E/R (Egg-per recruit) rate of 10% is desirable to provide sufficient recruits to maintain lobster stocks and levels below this are considered over over exploitation. The E/R rates in all areas involving PEI is below 2%. All attempts to improve this have met with no cooperation from the fishermen in these zones.

There is plenty of other information in the document that shows the fishery is on the decline.

Of course fishermen think that killing seals is their contribution to protecting their resource. Maybe because they are too damn lazy to read the research themselves. After all, only they know anything about the fishery.

Fishermen love to harass anyone who has the nerve to have a say about our marine ecosystem, especially if they have the nerve to point out seals are not the problem.

If you want to look at some fish science instead of saying "I'm a fisherman and therefore I know everything, you can read;

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/DocR ... _048_e.pdf

As for Seal proof traps to reduce losses, I had encountered a research paper on it. I no longer have the computer, but if you were interested, a little googling would find info on it. I'm not really interested in spending time on it...unless the Island Fishermen supported it, it is a waste of time. Google it and see. I do know the Finnish Game and Fisheries Research Institute did research on it and demonstrated reduction in losses of about 85%.

My point is that Fishermen don't seem to care about their resource enough to work with DFO to improve it (read the document mentioned). They just want the right to kill seals.

I'm against it and always will be, when they are just being killed to protect a few traps. I had relatives who fished years ago. There always were seals. Funny it has only become important now, since fishermen want to protect every lobster.

How about recognizing that most of the PEI zones are on the decline because of over exploitation. Need proof? Read the Stock and fishery status of the American Lobster, Homarus americanus, in the souther Gulf of St. Lawrence, for 2001 (lobster Fishing Areas 23, 24, 25, 26A and 26B).

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


Last edited by Ed The Sock on January 18th, 2008, 9:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 4:59 am 
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TTBoy wrote:
I know you mean well but it is managed alot better then say land management on pei... maybe you would could help the local watershed on pei by protesting the way pei farm land is managed... or should i say how it has managed to fill most brooks and rivers to the they can hardly support life... well unless you count the algae blooms from all the nitrogens that get into the water..


this year i say save the sealers and their boats...


I have often stated my agreement that nitrates are a serious issue. I wrote about how nitrates in harbours and bays, cause Eutrophication.

Farmers seem to think they are doing all they can.

I'm sure you realize that a Commission on nitrates in groundwater has been established in 2007 and hopefully they will come back with some recommendations.

In any event, I've stated in a debate we had about a year ago, that the impact of nitrates on fishing grounds has to be dealt with.

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:33 am 
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Ed The Sock wrote:


Of course fishermen think that killing seals is their contribution to protecting their resource.

Fishermen love to harass anyone who has the nerve to have a say about There always were seals. Funny it has only become important now, since fishermen want to protect every lobster.



I'm no fan of his, but I wouldn't just discount Salmon Chaser so bluntly. He is a fisherman and he's out there fishing and seeing these seals damage his traps so it is definitely a real problem for him and other fishermen who are trying to make their livelihood. The big picture, the one with the stats and the studies and the way the rest of the world views us doesn't even enter his, or others' minds.

There is a legal cull ongoing, the ice flows are diminishing and still, still, fishermen are having difficulties with seals. I think you hit it on the head above, Ed, with your statement that there have always been seals but why are they just a problem now? And it's because there is no fish left in the ocean for them to eat. And of course that brings us back to the fact of over fishing, etc. There's nothing left.

Every day I see foxes all over the place, in people's yards, etc. A few years ago it was a very rare thing to see a fox. Is it because the population is exploding or because the few that are left are starving because there's no forests left.

Blame the animals for being animals I guess.


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:45 am 
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For those who are open minded and wish to see an article that explains what I have been saying for years, that the interaction between predators like seals and prey, like fish is essential to the health of the ocean, I'd suggest they read some of the material by the "Grey Seal Society".

The article asks some interesting questions. Why are oxygen levels in the ocean dropping. Why are plankton levels falling. Why are adult cod dying of starvation.

I've consistently stated that fishermen are shooting themselves in the foot. This article shows my theory in ways that are far beyond my technical Marine Biology capabilities to communicate.

The article is about 10 pages. Those with an open mind are invited to read it and if they prefer to disbelieve it, fine. At least you'll have the information that will allow you to form an opinion.

http://www.fisherycrisis.com/seals/greysealhunt.htm

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:45 am 
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Seems to me there was lots of both seals & fish before fishers were overfishing so by my logic the reason for a shortage of fish is overfishing.
Fishers as a group have by overfishing put a lot of sea creatures on the endangered list. With the shortage of fish just wait a few years until the seals themselves start to starve because of the shortage of fish to feed them all. Nature is a circle & remove one species from the food chain & the whole system breaks down.
Have we as supposed to be a smart species not learned from past history? We don't seem to believe we should leave much for the next generations.
Read somewhere that we do not own the land we are just caretakers for the next generation. Guess this generation must have missed this.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:50 am 
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FRANKIE wrote:
Ed The Sock wrote:


Of course fishermen think that killing seals is their contribution to protecting their resource.

Fishermen love to harass anyone who has the nerve to have a say about There always were seals. Funny it has only become important now, since fishermen want to protect every lobster.



I'm no fan of his, but I wouldn't just discount Salmon Chaser so bluntly. He is a fisherman and he's out there fishing and seeing these seals damage his traps so it is definitely a real problem for him and other fishermen who are trying to make their livelihood. The big picture, the one with the stats and the studies and the way the rest of the world views us doesn't even enter his, or others' minds.

There is a legal cull ongoing, the ice flows are diminishing and still, still, fishermen are having difficulties with seals. I think you hit it on the head above, Ed, with your statement that there have always been seals but why are they just a problem now? And it's because there is no fish left in the ocean for them to eat. And of course that brings us back to the fact of over fishing, etc. There's nothing left.

Every day I see foxes all over the place, in people's yards, etc. A few years ago it was a very rare thing to see a fox. Is it because the population is exploding or because the few that are left are starving because there's no forests left.

Blame the animals for being animals I guess.


I am not necessarily discounting salmon chaser. He has a single point of view based on his income. He seems to think no one else has a different point of view that has scientific validity. It was Salmon that was condescending about googling for fisheries info, even though most of my fisheries info comes from valid fish science research, along with some of the marine bio texts I've read.

As I pointed out, fishermen were told they need to improve the number of replacement of young, yet they are still nowhere near doing so. They will be responsible for the loss of the resource.

While fishermen feel a certain ownership, they are simply leaseholders. We all own the oceans and have an interest in its preservation.

I posted an article from the Grey Seal Society, that talks about why all marinel life is important, whether predator or prey.

It makes a great read.

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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


Last edited by Ed The Sock on January 18th, 2008, 1:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: January 18th, 2008, 8:51 am 
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champ wrote:
Seems to me there was lots of both seals & fish before fishers were overfishing so by my logic the reason for a shortage of fish is overfishing.
Fishers as a group have by overfishing put a lot of sea creatures on the endangered list. With the shortage of fish just wait a few years until the seals themselves start to starve because of the shortage of fish to feed them all. Nature is a circle & remove one species from the food chain & the whole system breaks down.
Have we as supposed to be a smart species not learned from past history? We don't seem to believe we should leave much for the next generations.
Read somewhere that we do not own the land we are just caretakers for the next generation. Guess this generation must have missed this.


I'd say you are on the right track.

_________________
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Lord Acton - Historian and moralist. 1834–1902


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PostPosted: January 19th, 2008, 5:57 am 
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I'm going to extend an olive branch to Salmon Chaser. I've taken the time to read every FRCC report on every fisheries species and I do understand his frustration. Looking at lobster in LFA 24, 25 and 26A, there are parts that are doing quite well and others that are in trouble. I can understand that damage by seals can almost wipe out the fishermen who are in the areas that have marginal catches. I suppose, under the circumstances, that I'd change my position on seal management, on a temporary basis, if I thought fishers would start acting responsibly. Do I believe it will happen? No. Thats the sad part.

Just a few years back, I remember the US didn't want to allow Canadian lobster across the border. In Maine, the minimum Carapace is 82mm. Even now after 3 carapace increases, the current minimum is 70mm.

The 2001 data showed that our lobster was already over exploited with exploit rates of between 50 and 75%. The data also showed a low recruitment factor. With few recruits, it means that you are fishing everything legal but few of the small lobster have the opportunity to mate at least once before being caught. The Sustainability Framework for Atlantic Lobster, 2007 really pointed out that a major part of the catch consisted of adolescents.

The end result is, even if major changes occur, it is unlikely that the decline in stocks can be stopped, unless somehow drastic change is made. The writing was on the wall in 2001, yet no changes were made and any adjustments made now, could take years to improve stocks.

The sad thing is almost every species fished is in trouble. Cod isn't rebounding. It was over fished to the point that it will never come back because "Natural predators" are still around. So what is DFO going to do? First they dramatically increased the number of seals in the cull, but that still isn't enough. Now they are going to create seal exclusion zones. Corps Mort, Ile Brion, and Rochers aux Oiseaux in the Magdalen Islands archipeligo as well as around the entire west part of Newfoundland.

This means they will completely eliminate seals in those areas, year round, hoping that elimination of the main predators, Cod will come back.

Will it work? Dunno. Cod depends on capelin for food and capelin stocks are not what they should be. On the other hand, zooplankton and phytoplankton levels are low, both important food sources for cod, as well as for the small fish that cod feed on.

Biomass levels of plaice, flounder and halibut are low as well, and you sure can't blame seals for that.

Now here is the interesting bit. While TAC's (total allowable catch) for these species have been reduced, cod, and all the other species are still being fished.

All the above, was mainly trying to explain to Salmon Chaser, why environmentalist like myself get pissed off. Fisheries are undertaking a cull of 325,000 seal, plus they will be probably killing about 100,000 more in the exclusion zones, in "Hopes" of bringing stocks back. Are they going to stop fishing the species in trouble, while doing so? No.

In fact, if you look at any of the FRCC docs, as soon as there seems to be any restoration of any species, they are out like thieves fishing them again.

I'm frustrated. I want to see the environment fixed. I remember what lobster was like in 1960. I remember seeing a 500 pound halibut pulled out of the water around 1965. I remember seeing grand banks cod that were 6 feet long and weighed about 70 pounds.

Whatever the species, if recruit levels aren't maintained, every single species will collapse again, if TACs are set on the basis of fishing what can be caught.

Even if one tries to conserve, if one doesn't assure recruits in sufficient numbers, are available to replace all those fished, the biomass collapses, again.

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