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 Post subject: The Greens
PostPosted: December 6th, 2014, 7:37 pm 
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I've always had a tremendous amount of respect for Peter Bevan Baker. The other threads talk about conservatives & Liberals. So I thought a Green Party thread would be a good idea.

Tho they may not be able to get the 27 candidates, I think this might be a seat someone outside the liberals & conservatives could win.

Do they concentrate on one-two seats or go for all of em?

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 Post subject: Re: The Green's
PostPosted: December 6th, 2014, 7:51 pm 
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What has Peter done?
It seems to me he has been virtually invisible since he was elected leader with the exception of a couple of press releases, some ill advised Rick Mercer style rants on Youtube, and some visits to the legislature when they are in session.

Every policy that they lay out on the PEI Green Party website was written by Sharon Labchuk. How is a vote for Peter any different than a vote for Labchuk?

I admire the fact that Mr. Bevan Baker took a stand and is running against the current power structure, I just don't think he is doing a very good job of it.

In my opinion, what they need to do is identify a handful of very good candidates, run them in ridings where they have a realistic chance and forget about the 27 candidate angle.

I would love to see the NDP and Green parties play spoiler. Nothing would be better for PEI at this moment in our history than a minority government.


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 Post subject: Re: The Green's
PostPosted: December 6th, 2014, 11:27 pm 
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What has he done? Well, he hasn't lowered the HST or made any big cuts to the debt. But he's spoken well on numerous items and when he does speak, it sounds good which is more then some of the other parties can say at this point.

So I guess its not about what he's done, but what he hasn't done that others have.

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 Post subject: Re: The Green's
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 9:25 am 
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jmweb wrote:

So I guess its not about what he's done, but what he hasn't done that others have.



That's a pretty low bar.
Pretty much includes 99.9% of the Island.

Clearly there are going to be a lot of protest votes this time around but it is time for Peter and for Mike Redmond to start laying out some ideas and how they are going to be paid for.
The Island green platform as it is written is not one I would vote for and since Peter hasn't indicated he will deviate from that, at this point he won't be getting my vote.


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 Post subject: Re: The Green's
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 11:38 am 
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jmweb wrote:
What has he done? Well, he hasn't lowered the HST or made any big cuts to the debt. But he's spoken well on numerous items and when he does speak, it sounds good which is more then some of the other parties can say at this point.

So I guess its not about what he's done, but what he hasn't done that others have.


I think instead of asking what he has done, a better question is what could he have done that he hasn't? The Green Party on PEI has never won a seat. They don't have any elected members. As such they have zero presence in the legislature, unless they are in the Visitors gallery. They have no money. In the last election they spent less than 3% of what the Conservatives did, and about 1.6% of what the Liberals did. They are fringe party at best. Other than letters to the editor and a couple of press releases, I am not sure they could have done anything else. Speaking well on topics is about the best Bevan-Baker could accomplish at this time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 3:22 pm 
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New Guy wrote:
jmweb wrote:
What has he done? Well, he hasn't lowered the HST or made any big cuts to the debt. But he's spoken well on numerous items and when he does speak, it sounds good which is more then some of the other parties can say at this point.

So I guess its not about what he's done, but what he hasn't done that others have.


I think instead of asking what he has done, a better question is what could he have done that he hasn't? The Green Party on PEI has never won a seat. They don't have any elected members. As such they have zero presence in the legislature, unless they are in the Visitors gallery. They have no money. In the last election they spent less than 3% of what the Conservatives did, and about 1.6% of what the Liberals did. They are fringe party at best. Other than letters to the editor and a couple of press releases, I am not sure they could have done anything else. Speaking well on topics is about the best Bevan-Baker could accomplish at this time.


Speaks more to how we elect people (first past the post) than to any problem with the party per se.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 3:48 pm 
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alandla wrote:
Speaks more to how we elect people (first past the post) than to any problem with the party per se.


While I am in favour of reforming the system to be an actual rep by pop system I don't think that would save the green party.
What might help them though is campaign finance reform.

It is absurd that we are getting to the point where money is going to win elections. It is absurd that the Liberal party can have a million dollar war chest, filled up by their corporate buddies, while other parties have to compete with very little.

There will always be an inequality if there is no campaign finance reform.

There are those who will say that if the candidate cannot raise money then they should not be there.
To which is say Bu****it.

How is a candidate that represents the people who need government assistance the most; the low wage earners, the people with addictions, the people who are losing their homes because of health care costs, the unemployed, supposed to raise money? How are these candidates supposed to compete with the very people that would love to keep wages low and who do not care about the homeless and the disadvantaged, for fund raising?


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 4:26 pm 
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Blake McKinley wrote:
alandla wrote:
Speaks more to how we elect people (first past the post) than to any problem with the party per se.


While I am in favour of reforming the system to be an actual rep by pop system I don't think that would save the green party.
What might help them though is campaign finance reform.

It is absurd that we are getting to the point where money is going to win elections. It is absurd that the Liberal party can have a million dollar war chest, filled up by their corporate buddies, while other parties have to compete with very little.

There will always be an inequality if there is no campaign finance reform.

There are those who will say that if the candidate cannot raise money then they should not be there.
To which is say Bu****it.

How is a candidate that represents the people who need government assistance the most; the low wage earners, the people with addictions, the people who are losing their homes because of health care costs, the unemployed, supposed to raise money? How are these candidates supposed to compete with the very people that would love to keep wages low and who do not care about the homeless and the disadvantaged, for fund raising?


Even if you eliminate Corporate Donations, which I certainly would not be opposed to, the Liberals and Conservatives are vastly ahead of the other parties in individual donations. And money is going to play a factor. You can have all the great ideas in the world, unless you can get them out and market them to the people, you are not going to get elected. And that marketing, whether it is in the form of Newspaper ads, TV Spots, flyers, or posters all cost money. So the simple answer is, if they can't raise money, they can forget forming the government.

Another problem though for the Greens and NDP is since they have next to no shot at getting someone elected, they don't put together well thought out platforms offering realistic solutions to the challenges we are facing. If they are serious about getting elected and offering some real options to the people, maybe they should at least be serious enough to propose some real solutions with some logic as to why their options are better.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 4:33 pm 
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You limit it by capping the amount that can be spent on campaigning.

Money is not free speech, contrary to what the right wing US supreme court decided.

It does not take a fortune to get a message out. It takes hard work. If the playing field is leveled from a financial standpoint then the candidates who work the hardest, knock on the most doors, attend the most public meetings are the ones who are going to prevail.

Can you tell me which policies of the NDP you find less than serious or not sustainable?


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 5:29 pm 
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Blake McKinley wrote:
You limit it by capping the amount that can be spent on campaigning.

Money is not free speech, contrary to what the right wing US supreme court decided.

It does not take a fortune to get a message out. It takes hard work. If the playing field is leveled from a financial standpoint then the candidates who work the hardest, knock on the most doors, attend the most public meetings are the ones who are going to prevail.

Can you tell me which policies of the NDP you find less than serious or not sustainable?


Sure, limit the amount spent on Campaigning. Of course that is a business loss to the media industry, the sign makers, the printers of flyers, ect. You are saying take 100s of thousands of dollars out of the economy. I wonder how the small business people who own places like Sign Craft and Quick Copy feel about your idea.

The provincial NDP has no policies. They have talking points. They want Responsible Government, Accountability, and they are for the Community. Of course all the other parties say the exact same thing. The last thing posted on their website about policy was a Managing Watersheds meeting on 2013. They are a joke. If they want to be treated like winners, they should start acting like it.

http://www.ndppei.ca/


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 5:37 pm 
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So you don't know what NDP policies are, you just claim they have none.

And, you believe our campaign finance laws should be based on income for sign makers and printers.

Odd.

Hardly a platform for democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 5:58 pm 
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Blake McKinley wrote:
So you don't know what NDP policies are, you just claim they have none.

And, you believe our campaign finance laws should be based on income for sign makers and printers.

Odd.

Hardly a platform for democracy.


I am saying that democracy is freedom and parties should be able to spend as they see fit. If people want to give their money to political parties, that is their choice and their right. For the record, I have never given money to a political party.

And what I am saying is that the NDP does not have any policies or a platform on its website. If they have policies, apparently they do not want to share them. Maintaining a website should be about the cheapest means to disseminate policies and beliefs this day and age. They could likely find a volunteer to update the site. If they can't put their policies on their website, especially considering they don't hold a seat where they could have put forth policy in the house, then they may as well not even have policies.

Of course, if you have more knowledge than I, please feel free to tell us all what the NDPs policies are.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 6:24 pm 
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I will describe some NDP policies, as I know them, in subsequent posts.
I agree that they are not doing a good job of correlating their policies.

When you say democracy is freedom to give unlimited money you really bastardize the idea of democracy.
That kind of thinking is the very reason our system is so corrupt.

You take large amounts of money out of the equation and you take the incentive away from those who can be bought and those who are motivated by quid pro quo.

Democracy means everyone has equal access. There is nothing democratic about rich back room boys controlling our elections.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 7th, 2014, 9:38 pm 
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Blake McKinley wrote:
I agree that they are not doing a good job of correlating their policies.

I think the word you are looking for is "communicating", not "correlating" :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 8:02 am 
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kreskin wrote:
Blake McKinley wrote:
I agree that they are not doing a good job of correlating their policies.

I think the word you are looking for is "communicating", not "correlating" :)



That too but I think the word I was looking for was compile.
The policies are out there but there just doesn't seem to be a single document or source to view them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 8:33 am 
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In fairness to the NDP, the websites of the Liberal Party of PEI and the PEI Progressive Conservative Party also seem to lack a clear statement of policies (at least that I can find ... maybe someone else can point out something on the respective websites that clearly define overall party policies?)

Surprisingly (given they are a party no one really takes too seriously as a contender on PEI), the Green Party of PEI has their policies easy to find and nicely summarized (here).

Whether or not I agree with some or all of their policies, it is nice that the Greens have that info out there for the many intelligent voters who refuse to be painted with the all encompassing brush that Blake used (i.e. just voting how mom & dad voted) and are trying to make an informed decision.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 9:06 am 
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kreskin wrote:
In fairness to the NDP, the websites of the Liberal Party of PEI and the PEI Progressive Conservative Party also seem to lack a clear statement of policies (at least that I can find ... maybe someone else can point out something on the respective websites that clearly define overall party policies?)

Surprisingly (given they are a party no one really takes too seriously as a contender on PEI), the Green Party of PEI has their policies easy to find and nicely summarized (here).

Whether or not I agree with some or all of their policies, it is nice that the Greens have that info out there for the many intelligent voters who refuse to be painted with the all encompassing brush that Blake used (i.e. just voting how mom & dad voted) and are trying to make an informed decision.

Party policies, written clearly or not, are nothing more than words to describe the initial direction of each party and we all know that the Liberals don't promote liberalism and nor do Conservatives promote conservation and we seldom vote for them based on their supposed Policies.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 9:52 am 
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Gardiner wrote:
Party policies, written clearly or not, are nothing more than words to describe the initial direction of each party and we all know that the Liberals don't promote liberalism and nor do Conservatives promote conservation and we seldom vote for them based on their supposed Policies.

You are correct. The fact that the Liberals and PC's don't have policy info on their websites isn't surprising. The fact that the NDP doesn't, however, is a surprise. With the growing discontent towards the "mainstream" parties, you'd think they would want that info out there where, in 2014, most people looking for an alternative would go looking for that kind of information.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 11:05 am 
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Gardiner wrote:
Party policies, written clearly or not, are nothing more than words to describe the initial direction of each party and we all know that the Liberals don't promote liberalism and nor do Conservatives promote conservation and we seldom vote for them based on their supposed Policies.



That is true.
The two parties are indistinguishable when they get into power.
All the more reason for the NDP to clearly lay out their policies and how they would be different.


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 Post subject: Re: The Greens
PostPosted: December 8th, 2014, 11:09 am 
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Blake McKinley wrote:
Gardiner wrote:
Party policies, written clearly or not, are nothing more than words to describe the initial direction of each party and we all know that the Liberals don't promote liberalism and nor do Conservatives promote conservation and we seldom vote for them based on their supposed Policies.



That is true.
The two parties are indistinguishable when they get into power.
All the more reason for the NDP to clearly lay out their policies and how they would be different.


All parties would behave the same way after they got into power.

The government has little control because most of our revenue is handed to us and we are at the mercy of outside economic influence.


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